The idea to write down Anatolij’s perspective on the world and music crushed me as an avalanche. My gut kept on telling me that it was going to be both extremely interesting and fun. We both – myself and Anatolij – share a very subtle sense of humour, and I firmly believe that anyone reading this interview is going to smile at least once.
Anatolij is a very intelligent, humorous and pleasant person. Working as a software engineer, he is also interested in developing computer games. However, this isn’t the most interesting fact about this guy. This fellow also has an exquisite taste of music and listens to metal – which is definitely one of my main passions. Therefore I simply follow my gut and we agree to talk.
We meet up in a Mexican restobar. The lights are dim and I can hear the margarita machine slurring the liquids in the background. Anatolij is wearing a white shirt and a black employee’s badge. Like a true developer, he comes prepared, wearing a jacket from a conference he attended a few years ago in Poland.
We start talking and I loose the sense of time. When Anatolij talks, it feels as if we move back to the past, to the good old days of his childhood.
When and why did you decide to use English as your primary language?
I don’t even know which one is the harder question – when or why. I don’t know if there was a specific when. My family lived Klaipėda and we got the cable TV with “Cartoon Network” in English. Me and my sister watched these cartoons not really understanding much at first, but we really liked them. We liked l the visuals and the animations of course, but also the cadence of the language. So we started talking to each other in English just as a form of entertainment – or at least tried to – but that very rapidly improves your language skill because you’re constantly using it. So we constantly kept improving each other.
By the time we actually started studying English at school, I could already form coherent sentences and the teachers were pleasantly surprised with it. We progressively spent more and more time talking in English with my sister just as a game. Even when we played together, we communicated in English for the fuck of it. That’s one side of it.
And the other side of it is getting older, getting other friends – like the people I met in high school – and starting to talk in English with them. In a way, it establishes some tones of rejecting the Russian culture when you are choosing a different language.
Was it your intention to reject this Russian culture?
I grew up with some very deeply conservatively Soviet Russian types.
Not like that. As I got exposed to the Internet and free way of living, liberal ideas of society- different than the sort of stuff that my parents or the other extended family talked about, I started not liking it. This is when I got into other kinds of music – other than the Russian pop. That’s when I was exposed to people of other ideas, different that the standard Russian views of the world: the never ending patriotism and the greatness of the Russian nation above all else. Now I’m starting to think that in some sense it was just a rejection of the Russian culture.
At the same time, I was still a big fan of the Russian language, since I read a lot of Russian books and I could speak very eloquent Russian all the way until the end of the high school. It was fun. Then I got a computer and I stopped reading books.
So at first it was fun, and now it’s just the way I talk. At this point I have spent so much of my life talking in English that it feels more comfortable. It’s harder to talk in Russian. I have to make an effort. It’s fun talking even in Lithuanian for a bit, for certain Lithuanian phrases. Talking in Russian, on the other hand, takes an effort.
I still think in Russian, I feel some Russian words and concepts on a more visceral level because it comes all the way from childhood, but it’s not my language of choice. English is my language of choice for the moment.
Did you know that you confuse people when you speak in English? Lithuanians don’t expect you to speak in English. I thought that you were a nerd when we met, when we started to work together, and I actually liked it. I thought it was funny.
I’m glad it’s funny. I want language to be fun. I want communication to be fun. That’s why I talk the way I do.
Yes, but I’m very positive about it. I think that other people might not understand why you are doing this. They might think you’re mocking them or something.
Oh well, that’s never the intention. If communication is important, we usually clear things up quickly these days. If I need to start communicating with someone at work, they would hear me talk in English and they see that name is Russian. So they think I’m either a refugee or I’m from those Slavic Republics. So they’re fine with it: they get to talk in Lithuanian, I get to talk in English and everybody understands each other just fine. It’s not how people are used to communicate, but it’s fun. And the yes, this might cause some misunderstandings, but that’s a price I’m willing to pay.
When you meet some babushkas in the local market, how do you talk to them?
You’d be surprised by the low number of babushkas I meet in the supermarkets.
Not necessarily in the supermarkets – I’m talking about a market place, a bazaar…Maybe a trolley bus. A place where the common folk would gather.
Thankfully, most of them don’t want to talk to me. But when people ask in Lithuanian, I answer in Lithuanian. If they ask in Russian, I answer in Russian.
What if you have to be the first one to talk?
I don’t. Based on my few previous interactions I’ve had in the centre with what seemed like pretty old ladies, they asked me for directions and I answered them in Lithuanian. After I answered them in Lithuanian, they started talking to me in English because my Lithuanian accent apparently tells them I’m a foreigner.
If people ask me something in Russian, I’ll answer in Russian. Of course, I generally try not to.
Why not?
Most folks are completely nice and innocent in their desires, and they just want you to help them a bit, and that’s great. However, some assume that a response in Russian breeds some form of familiarity. If people use Russians as their primary communication language, they would feel like they’re unwelcome foreigners in Lithuania. Lithuanians don’t like them very much. Depending on the area you go to.
That’s because Lithuania was occupied for so long.
That is also true. However, Lithuania isn’t the only country where it happened. So I guess there’s plenty of bad blood all over the place. So if you ask for something in Russian and somebody answers you in clean native Russian, you feel a sense of belonging which I do not want to promote to those people.
What if it was not the regular common folk, but a musician, for instance, somebody who plays music that you like in Russian?
I see no problem regardless of what they do.
No, but you also say that you don’t want to be associated with this kind of familiarity.
I suppose I’m not really phrasing it right. I don’t mean that the familiarity would somehow be a bad thing. But also there is a very specific kind of Russians. As you know, some of them – the less savory individuals – do end up with a specific “world owes me a favor” kind of mentality. And they feel like they got a chip on their shoulder, because they feel persecuted by the the people in the country. So some of those are not the most pleasant people to deal with.
Someone being Russian, but remaining a productive member of society is perfectly welcome. I mean, I have a sizable circle of Russian friends. They’re all Russians. Technically, born in Klaipėda, not Russians from Russia. I also know a few people living in Lithuania who are actually Russians from Russia. And they’re also OK people. They don’t have to alter that. So if some Russian speaking musician I like would talk to me, that’d be an honour. But I don’t think they will.
Are there actually such bands or musicians from Russia that you like?
Yes, not surprisingly. I mean, I’ve listened to Russian music most of my life, so it would be surprising if I didn’t.
Yeah, but for me that would be Viktor Tsoi who has been dead so long.
Some of them do end up biting the big one, which makes sense. He was a great fella. But no, I don’t think I listened to him. I don’t remember. When did he die?
90 something. So we were too young.
We did have “Kino” on tapes back then, before we had the CDs or anything like that. So we listened to some of their stuff. But I think he was already dead by the time we had those tapes.
It was fun and of course, progressively later I got into heavier stuff. There are a few bands from those early days that I have enjoyed all the way until now, “Machina Vremeni” being one of them. I’ve listened to them as a kid and I still enjoy them. I love their writing, their message. They were actually planning to come to Lithuania later this year.
Will they be allowed to come? They are Russians.
Well, they are Russians, but like most of the Russian culture, they are against the war. They are not allowed to perform in Russia. After the war started, the Russian government has actually done more to destroy the Russian culture than any other historic persecution event. Stage performances, things like theatre plays or concerts are all centralised by the Russian stage entertainment bureau. In order to have a concert somewhere or perform a play, you need a permit from them and that is a government agency. So if somebody whose opinions disagree with the government wishes to perform a concert or a play of any kind, they will not be granted a permit.
So it is impossible to play. It is impossible for them to make money. They have to go abroad if they want to survive. These performers, actors, bands, if they disagree with the war, they fuck off, because they literally can’t live in Russia, they have no ways of making money.
So Russians are big fans of destroying the Russian culture on the government level. Russian culture is banned in Russia more than anywhere else.
Sometimes I want to get some up to date ideas on what’s happening with the war. Then I get the information from the Russian sources, from Russian speaking channels.
Isn’t that propaganda?
Not, not channels from Russia, but from Russian speakers, people who are banned in Russia, people who left Russia but grew up in Russia, who have followed Russian politicians, who have worked in Russian politics. People who understand the mentality. People who understand how the government apparatus of Russia works. People who have a better understanding of what’s happening in there. Because they still have sources, they have friends. People who can tell them what the situation is. It’s usually depressing, but it’s also nice to know that the things are not going great for regimes like this.
Hopefully it will collapse one day. Now let’s change the gears and switch to something more contemporary.
I was in the Netherlands in the beginning of September. I didn’t see a single person on a scooter: neither on a regular one, neither on a electric one. Everybody just rides the bike like they damn should. There are more bikes there than in Denmark. And I thought that in Denmark that was crazy. But it’s even more crazy in the Netherlands. Scooters would be just in the way and they look stupid, and they are very dangerous. I saw a douchebag parent yesterday or a day before; he was going with his son. Thanks God, they were going on separate scooters. But, of course, the daddy was scrolling through the phone and he fell. Luckily, nothing happened and he was just laughing about it. But I think that he was setting a very bad example to his son. You’re you’re not supposed to use the phone on a goddamn scooter. What the fuck are you doing, dude?
If you get hit by a scooter going full tilt with a person on it, it will hurt like a bitch and you might actually break something, but it’s much less likely you’ll die. But if you get hit by a car going full speed, then you’ll die more likely. Which is of course very unpleasant. That’s why I got to watch out.
I’ve seen plenty of people have one hand on the steering wheel and the other one is holding the phone, and they’re not even looking when reversing into a parking spot.
There’s more interesting things to look at. The TikToks won’t watch themselves – you have to have priorities.
Do you have a TikTok account?
I actually do. It’s a way to consume entertaining short videos, although I wouldn’t have anything to post. I am a lurker on Instagram as well. I follow people I personally know, like my sister, you, some ex colleagues, some current colleagues, some other friends from around the city or people I’ve known once upon a time.
So far, I really never got into following people I don’t know on a personal level. I never got into following actors, bands on their official Instagram, or Facebooks, or TikTok, or whatever. I know a lot of people make entertaining content. Some people make relatable content. And a lot of people want to sell themselves as influencers. You know, they post content about their life. But I never got into following anyone in that kind of way. I’m not really interested in following the lives of people I don’t know.
When you’re talking about personal accounts, I can understand that. But what about musicians?
Promotional accounts. It makes sense – it’s a good idea to sell. I just don’t. Never developed the habit.
Didn’t you use mIRC back in the day?
No, not mIRC. Not me. I wasn’t that Russian.
I wasn’t Russian and I used it.
You were more Russian than me, then. But seriously, I never used IRC channels, although I had a “Myspace” account. I had “VKontakte”. I have a “Facebook”, I have an “Instagram”.
I never got into the idea that I can follow something and it would give me updates on something I’m interested in. Never occurred to me that if I want updates on something, I don’t have to proactively search, that I can follow somebody and they will tell me. So it’s just not a natural thing to me.
How do you then find out about your favourite bands, about their concerts, their releases?
Well, these days on “Spotify”. You visit the band’s channel and it has the announcements. Or the concert dates near you. Generally, I get told by friends that a concert is happening. In some cases, the targeted ads help. You just see something and you look it up. But for the most part, either people tell me or I find out by looking up something related to that band, so, in essence, by accident.
How did you discover heavy music? What kind of heavy music?
Well, I was never much into music theory. Some of my friends are. But I can’t say I’m very good at classifying, so I wouldn’t. I’m not even entirely sure what is considered “heavy music”. I listen to metal. I listen to the various types of rocks. I listen to alternative rock. There’s a subset of rock that’s Hard Rock. I guess that’s heavy judging by the name.
Those indie rock bands that are some similar to “Oasis” – I don’t consider them to be heavy. That’s vanilla to me. I would say that metal is something more extreme. So essentially I’m asking about more extreme music.
I do have to understand that it’s considered more extreme, which is very surprising, because to me metal is such a simple and natural sound. So, to know that a lot of people don’t listen to metal at all is odd. It’s odd that the biggest bands in metal – like international super hits that are well known – are still so niche compared to anything pop. The biggest, most well known metal songs in the world get maybe 20-30 million listens total, whereas any recent song of a pop artist gets 100 times that.
That’s bizarre, yet there are some exceptions. I think that “Metallica” is that popular.
“Metallica” might be, yes, but classic metal is definitely a part of metal that has never appealed to me. To me the sound is just a bit too unengaging. I get bored with it. I guess I’m not fan of classic metal. Then again, I can’t say I’ve listened to much of it. Maybe these days I’d like it more, because I do feel that in my old age I’m starting to gravitate a bit more to the classics.
So what do you prefer? Power metal?
A bit of it – a lot of it gets pretty monotonous. There’s speedier power metal, there’s slower power metal. You want to strike a balance. I like a lot more different symphonic metal than power metal. I like “Epica” – at least some of it. “Epica” has some stuff that’s very engaging, very intense and fresh sounding, but some of it just doesn’t grab me.
For a long time I avoided most metal that has all kinds of screaming sections, because I just didn’t feel the sound. It didn’t make a lot of sense to. These days some of the metal does rely heavily on screaming and it sounds nice, depending on what you listen to. Somehow it makes sense. Some of it doesn’t.
So I listen to folk metal, some symphonic metal. Bits of power metal, “pirate” metal, “Disney” metal.
What are these two things? I’m not familiar with them.
I wouldn’t call them entire genres. There are some bands that are themed around the idea of sailing. There are some measures, like the tempo which varies like the waves of the sea when you listen to it. I call that pirate metal. Just to make it easier.
What I call “Disney Metal” is stuff made by those YouTube people like Violet Orlandi or Jonathan Young. People who got really popular on YouTube by doing either covers or original songs with very clean, pleasant “Disney” sounding voices. But they do it with heavier metal music. I don’t think that’s an official denomination, but those are nice.
And of course lighter genres as well, not just metal, but when it comes to metal, I think it’s mostly those. There’s some nu-metal as well. Also, bits of industrial metal and electronic-ish metal. More recently, some bands try to incorporate a lot more EDM sound into their stuff. Their sound incorporates grungy guitars and drum beats, and it becomes kind of a blend of both. Of course I’m open to finding new sounds – whatever I’ll find interesting.
However, it’s not always easy. We spend most weeks marking 10 out of 30 songs as completely trash on “Discover Weekly”. Like a generous third of the fucking songs. Some of them I just listen through and don’t like them, so I don’t put them in the liked lists or anything. I just simply listen through and signal “Spotify” that it is tolerable, but I don’t like it that much. And then for a good third of them I just actually press the button to signal that I don’t like this. Where do you get this idea, Mr. Algorithm?
I don’t know that as well. And sometimes “Spotify” gives me such kind of shit…
If you listen to a lot of the same kinds of genres and then try to experiment a bit with one or two songs out of your comfort zone to get a different sound, the algorithm remembers and will overindex on it. If you’re feeling nostalgic and listen to one old polka song from those old Russian “Fabrika” shows, the next “Discover Weekly” will be 1/2 polka songs.
How did you discover these types of music ? Were you a metalhead at school?
I was a nerdhead at school. I didn’t have the rebelliousness to be goth. But again, I didn’t really want to outwardly show any interest. Nowadays I’d call myself NerdCore, but I can’t, because that’s an actual genre of music. As far as I know, there’s nerd core the same way there’s math core, and humour core. I don’t know. I guess I’m not a walking musical compendium.
You do look like one. You do SOUND like one, really.
The foundations for this were actually laid in childhood by my unsuspecting parents, because like all proper Russian families, they listened to a lot of Russian pop on the radio. Apart from that, my dad was actually into a whole lot of different rock’n’roll from my young age. He listened to “The Beatles”, “Scorpions”, “The Doors”. I constantly had that stuff playing at home. And of course, “Machina Vremeni”. They’re a rock band, but they also had some slightly heavier stuff.
Eventually, in high school we were listening to a lot of Russian pop, like the one you hear on TV and on the radio, but also we listened to the music playing on our own jukebox. Actually, it was my sister’s jukebox. So she had some CDs: some of them were just collections of various pop tracks, some of it was heavier Russian stuff, some of it was non Russian music, like “Smash” and “Savage Garden”. And eventually through those bands I stumbled onto “Green Day”. I started listening to a lot of “Green Day”, because it sounded nice.
After “Green Day” I eventually came to “Nickelback”. I listened to a lot of “Nickelback” which I’m thankful for, because when I started listening to them in parallel with other bands, I developed taste. When I started listening to “Nickelback “and then listening to Billy Talent, I understood that the latter sounds better, fresher, more musical. So I moved on to Billy Talent, then moved on to “The Offspring”.
This was in high school – maybe 10th or 11th grade. “Green Day” started in 9th grade and then 11th grade was this kind of evolution. So that was around 2007 or 2008.
After that we were listening to mixes of different things. Some of those mixes contained one or two songs by “Nightwish”, “Evanescence” or “HIM”. There were bits of this and that, which I enjoyed but never sought out more of.
At the same time my sister started studying German with a private tutor on the side. To help her study, we watched some German TV at home: VH1, Viva, etc. They would play “Lafee”, they would play “Tokyo Hotel”, they would play “Cinema Bizarre”. They would play these slightly heavier German bands, because that was the popular German TV.
Didn’t they play “Rammstein”?
Surprisingly no. Maybe a few tracks – very few, honestly. But then again, they didn’t have “Rammstein” on the talk shows, so maybe the stuff they played wasn’t necessarily very heavy. So I never really cared too much about them. Well, not until recently. So I was sort of sponging up all that kind of stuff. And then I moved on.
When I moved out to Vilnius to study in the university, a friend of mine introduced me to more of “Nightwish”. A full collection of albums – to their entire discography up to “Dark Passion Play”. This was before 2011 – they hadn’t released “Imaginarium” yet. I got the full discography and I listened through all of it many times. It wasn’t like I was “transfixed, listening in a stupor” kind of thing – no – simply in the background while playing longer RPGs – ones with a fantasy setting. In such case symphonic metals background sounds really good.
I just had it running nonstop and from that I started looking into some of those other bands of which I heard like one or two songs before. I looked into “Evanescence”. This music was mostly just for teenage girls that wanted to cut themselves so I wasn’t interested. Then I remembered there were one or two songs by “Within Temptation”. So I also listened to a lot of “Within Temptation”.
At that point we could already find services like “Pandora”. These were search engines where you can input what kind of bands you like and they would give you suggestions of what other bands play similar music. This was long before I even knew “Spotify” existed. So I went through those kinds of services, inputting “Nightwish”, “Within Temptation” and other bands. That’s how I discovered “Delain” somewhere early in the 2010’s. After I got “Spotify”, it introduced me to one or two songs from this, one or two songs from that, like sort of amalgamation, but no real big steady bands of which I would like the whole discography.
This year because of the “Rammstein” concert, I had to listen to a lot of their music. I never really listened to much of them before. But because I had to go to the concert, I had to prepare. So I spent many months listening to a whole lot of “Rammstein” just to have a good idea of their discography. It was interesting because it was certainly not the kind of metal I usually listen to, but it sounded quite nice. After the concert was over, I kept some of their stuff I liked for myself.
It was the same with “Epica”, because they had a concert in the beginning of the year. When you are sitting there at the concert, you get it on a visceral level. It finally speaks to you, sinks in when you see it live performed. You get that emotional experience. So that’s kind of the general idea. I don’t know if I’d be able to articulate why I like that sound more than a lot of other sounds.
Actually, in the middle of all that, there was also Marilyn Manson for quite a few years, like between the high school and the start of university. I don’t know what what kind of metal that classifies as. Maybe industrial? But I don’t listen to much of them. Maybe I should.
Didn’t you want to be disassociated from the likes who listen to pop music? Like fyfos and marozai? Didn’t you have them in Klaipėda?
Oh plenty. Yeah, like those morozi sitting there in the back of the bus. Blasting Maksim on maximum volume from the back of the fucking bus. No, I don’t like that. Although these days I don’t really associate music with who listens to it.
Nowadays we are at a point where subcultures no longer shock people. Back in the day it was different. You needed a tribe, a group to belong to in order to feel at home. Now there are no margins. Everything is so intertwined that nobody gives a fuck anymore.
I’m sure that subcultures still exist. As long as there’s music your parents disagree with, there will be a subculture based around it. A subculture will die the day your parents will be accepting of whatever music you listen to.
I don’t agree with you because subcultures are not only popular among teenagers. It’s a more global thing and now there are no more boundaries. We live in a post-everything world where subcultures are no longer interesting, no longer surprising to others. They have no effect.
When I was a teenager and in my early 20s, being a metalhead or a goth was more visceral. It was about the ideas behind the subculture, and now I don’t think that people actually have these anymore because. Everybody’s so used to that. You can have as many piercings, as many tattoos, as many patches on your jacket, nobody gives a fuck anymore.
Yeah, but that only speaks about subcultures in terms of rebelling against something. Those reasons might not be around anymore, but as you say, it’s a culture. The ideas are still there and some cultures will exist until ideas die.
The idea of a subculture wasn’t to be shocking. The idea was to maintain a specific set of values and to belong.
That’s how the Church works. And it has been a very successful subculture for millions of years. Of course, not in a direct kind of dogmatic way. You don’t have to pray to anyone or sacrifice nonbelievers. The ideas of religion aren’t exactly born of some grand genius. It’s just the wish of people to serve a higher purpose. That’s true of religion. That’s true of subcultures. That’s true of militant patriots. Everyone wants to serve something. It’s better than just have your own little existence.
I don’t know how it’s now it is because I simply don’t have that much information. But back in my days, it was mostly revolving around music. To belong to a subculture was usually to listen to that particular style of music. If you were a goth, if you were a metalhead, you would be keen on finding people just like you. You would be keen on having your relationships and boyfriends and girlfriends and friends from your subculture. Even morozi had their own subculture.
They all have their own subcultures, which have their own specific rules. Clothes you’re supposed to dress with. Music you’re supposed to like. There’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone likes having subcultures.The thing is, in my case, I wasn’t interested. I didn’t seek out any subcultures. I didn’t look them up. I wasn’t interested in sharing my interest in this kind of music with anyone. I liked it. My sister liked it. The friend or two who I knew also liked it. That was good enough for me. I never felt the need for a community.
When I listen to you, it does sound that you had community, not necessarily a subculture, but some kind of community.
Well, yes, we have to have a community, otherwise we don’t have a sense of belonging. It’s a part of the monkey brain.
I know of people who killed themselves when they stopped belonging to communities. Ostracization is the worst punishment one can invoke. Throwing somebody out of the village, making them leave and never come back. You’ll just die alone.
Of course, I’m not denying that the community was necessary. I had people I liked, but we didn’t spend much time discussing the music. To me that was usually a private interest. Not because others hated it or anything. Just no one else was interested. But then again, I didn’t spend a lot time promoting it either, so I would usually keep it to myself. I kept a lot of my life to myself growing up.
We end our talk and leave this Mexican place. I feel high – like after a good run. It feels good. It feels natural – like my gut told me before the meeting. The avalanche has passed and I am left with a wonderful sense of relief and a newer, deeper understanding of who Anatolij really is.
Deviant Generation 